When the horror silences you

“Always make your opponents think you know more than you really know.”

When the horror silences you

15 July 2008 90 views 12 Comments

Update: I don’t know any specifics of the case involved here, but seeing in print what “interrogation” means for US officials is sickening, disgusting and will certainly cost me more than one nightmare. How can a nation that is sanctioning this kind of treatment be surprised when everyone starts shooting at them? (And I so very much hope that our government will never descend to that level or already has.)
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(Original post 6/15/08)
It is always easy to be judgmental from the comfy chair of your home, to criticize persons and organizations for what they have or have not done. But there are issues where one cannot be judgmental enough, where everyone should speak up and not stop to complain until the issue is resolved.

I don’t know about you but I have been nauseated by the stories and pictures of the abuse of inmates of the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and the prison camp in Guantanamo through US soldiers. Those news reports made me sick, literally, and caused me nightmares for a while. While I am writing this I have to fight tears of frustration and anger because I just can’t wrap my brain around the fact that people are really capable of such monstrous things and still feel like they did the right thing.

It is not my intention to start a discussion about the right and wrong of the US aggressions against Afghanistan or Iraq. These issues are too complex to be presented in a short blog entry and need a lot of research to get the facts right. They are too important to mix them with personal feelings and beliefs.

But the issue of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo arose again for me because I just read an article about the book »Oath Betrayed« by the US American doctor Steven Miles (German/English). He’s a professor for medical ethics and raised the question: what where the doctors and the other medical personnel doing in those prison camps? Didn’t they notice anything? And if they did, did they try to help prevent the torture?

The shocking answer Miles’ presents is: yes, they did know, and no, they did not protest or file complaints. Despite the fact that they took an oath, as every doctor does, to protect life and health of a patient, they stood by the torture and even faked death certificates, stating as cause “natural”, even if the bodies showed clear signs of abuse.

Did you know we assigned one of our best pain technicians — pain technicians, they used to be called torturers, ever since they got organized it’s ‘pain technicians’ — Why are you here? One of our very best torturers, I felt certain he would break him. Two hours he worked, not a sound. I said: ‘Give me a cry, rin-tintsy. Give me a shout, a whimper, a scream.’ Silence! So, I got to it myself. You can’t leave these things to others, they never get it right!
Emperor Carthagia, B5, »The Summoning«
… and for once this quote has no humor at all in it.

What makes me want to scream in outrage is the fact that the US government - and I am specifically stating here: the government! I am not saying every US citizen is supporting this kind of action - takes people’s rights away, locks them away, and tortures them.

Let’s ignore the fact that the US actually did sign the Geneva Convention (and conveniently declared the inmates at Abu Ghraib and Guanatanmo as unlawful combatants, robbing them of any status that would have given them protection under the convention); let’s ignore the fact that the US uses the argument of torture sanctified by the government as a reason to declare war against other nations or at least denounce them; let’s ignore the fact that more than just once they had completely innocent civilians at their hands and didn’t even bother to find out if they were guilty or not … how can a government that endorses actions like these be treated with respect from other nations?

George Bush and his followers are walking all over human rights and no one is holding them accountable for it. No one is paying retribution to those people who have finally escaped the horrors of US American imprisonment after being held there for years while being innocent.

It raises the serious question: how can this nation recover from crossing this line? When you choose the path where you will employ any means necessary … no: available to attain your (own personal, oil fueled) goals - how do you come back from it? How do you make up for it and in which way can civilized countries welcome you back amongst their midst?

And please, anyone who wants to bring on the argument: it’s just for the sake of protecting the country and the whole democratic world … do us a favor and shut up! I usually don’t use this kind of language, but I am sick of listening to this self-righteous crap.

The one thing that makes us different from terrorists is that we choose not to follow in their footsteps. That we choose not to employ the same methods as they do. That we choose to take a risk of not finding out a certain information by torture, but by that ensuring that we don’t torture at all and don’t hurt innocent people.

Because that is what democracy is about: to protect by taking chances. Freedom is always risky, democracy is risky. The alternative is to live under a regime like the George W. Bush administration which doesn’t give a damn about anyones rights but their own. Or, even worse, to see how fundamental rights are slowly being taken away from you, as it is the case with some new laws being enforced in Germany which give reason for a lot of concern.

In the end, it makes you wonder how long US soldiers and other government employees will still have the chance of exercising their power over prisoners, torturing and killing them without ever having to face the consequences. Let’s hope this will change dramatically with a new administration. Let’s hope our own country doesn’t follow this path any further - because it starts to scare the living daylights out of me and it should concern you too. Because the way this is going, it’s not “innocent until proven guilty” anymore. No, as our esteemed Federal Minister of Interior wants to have it (German/English), you’ll be guilty until you can prove your innocence. Give that some thought.

“You forgot the first rule of a fanatic. When you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy.”
Sinclair, B5, »Infection«

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12 Comments »

James said:

Rage against it all you want. Freely so. Now put on the armour and battle from within the government you detest. Sign up and fight next to the military comrades you find so disgusting. OR just type away, safely from the hole you dug away from the rest of the world and all your problems will go away.

[Reply]

# 15 June 2008 at 5:44 pm

Starstuff (author) said:

James, I am not criticizing those people who serve their country with honor, but I rage against those people who - in trying to protect us against terrorism - have become the danger themselves.
There is a fine line between fighting the bad and becoming the bad and I believe that torture and humiliation are on the bad side.

And yes, I battle the government I detest: I speak out, I go to marches, you name it. This may sound weak, but how many people are out there who just don’t care enough to make a stand? It’s not all about military and fighting, it’s about questioning the government about its actions and making it accountable for what it does.

I wouldn’t mind signing up for the military as long as my service doesn’t mean I would have to commit such horrible crimes as some of those soldiers did and still do in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. I would never call those people comrades - they are monsters.

My hope is that people become aware of what is happening, that they start to care for what happens to other people and that they start to demand answers from their government for actions taken. Only by this we can change things and make things better. Because in the end it’s not just about defending yourself and others, it’s about securing a certain way to live. And what good is it when we are “safe”, but basic human rights have been taken away for that safety?

I’d rather take the risk and the freedom than the other way around.

Nonetheless , thank you very much for your opinion, James. It is appreciated.

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# 15 June 2008 at 6:06 pm

klti said:

I’m totally on your line with that issue, just some stuff crossed my mind while reading:

How can anybody be capable of doing such things: look at the Milgram experiment - for me it shows that it requires effort and a strong mind NOT to do as you are told if it is wrong. Frakin made me loose my faith in humanity as I heard of it the first time.

And at least you can see some signs of hope - see the recent supreme court decission on right of guantanmo inamtes. Of course this comes years after it has been usefull, but better late than never. And the highest german court is obviously the only thing thats keeping germany from going going down the same drain.

How can the USA recover from it: I seriously hope this stuff sticks to their reputation for a VERY long time. Thats the only way we have a chance it won’t happen again. See germany - the stuff from WW2 and the years before is still an issue today, and IMHO this is a good thing, as it can keep you (as a nation) on the right track.

[Reply]

# 15 June 2008 at 6:11 pm

Starstuff (author) said:

Thanks, klti, for your opinion.

Your are right with Milgram, of course, as a psychology student I should have remembered it. Made me freak out when I read it the first time, that is just sooooo scary. And it would explain a lot.

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# 15 June 2008 at 6:23 pm

tschilai said:

It does explain a lot, unfortunately.

TNG’s “The Drumhead” is a great take on these issues. If you’ve never seen it, I strongly suggest you do. Just one quote, there certainly are more:

Picard, actually quoting someone else: “With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.”

Impressed the hell out of me when I first saw it as a kid.

[Reply]

# 15 June 2008 at 10:15 pm

Stu MacPherson said:

Nothing personal but how can anyone take you serious sly when you can’t even get basic facts straight on where Abu Ghraib was located.
That would be the country of Iraq not Afghanistan as you state. Your shoty geography says volumes about how well researched you are on the matter. Lets face it you don’t know your facts. Im not saying everything you have written is flawed but it definately shows your opinion and not the facts.
If you feel these people who are in these prisons who have attacked our personel and citizens are due the same rights as an American citizen I aplaud you for your generosity, however I would not want to be in your shoes if you were to meet them on the streets after their release.

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# 16 June 2008 at 12:41 am

Starstuff (author) said:

Stu, you are absolutely rigth and I apologize for mixing that up. I corrected it.

But you are also right in saying that the article reflects my personal opinion. As I stated a neutral article would definitly have required more research and would have become considerably longer. Still, the mixup is embarassing, don’t know how that happened.

And the thing I meant to say about the people currently imprisoned, especially in Guantanamo: they should not be tortured and humiliated. Because treating them that way erases all borders between the good guys and the bad guys; it’s just like the last quote I mentioned: If you start fighting terrorism with the same methods as the terrorists, you BECOME the terrorist!

And to be honest: I have less fear of meeting those people in a dark alley at night than going to the US on a vacation or business trip. Which is the reason I have not come back and visited my friends now for quite some years because I do not feel safe in the US, mainly because I do not feel it is a democratic country anymore and because basic civil and human rights are not honored anymore.

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# 17 June 2008 at 7:33 am

tschilai said:

Referring to the update, I’ll just quote German comedian Pispers:

“Und da wundern Sie sich, wenn wir Bomben unter den Arsch gelegt kriegen? Wann wundern Sie sich endlich, warum wir nur so wenige Bomben unter den Arsch gelegt kriegen?!”

Roughly translated:

“And you’re wondering why there are bombs being placed under our asses? When will you finally start wondering why there are so few bombs being placed under our asses?!”

[Reply]

# 15 July 2008 at 6:41 pm

Matthias said:

Great you quoted Volker Pispers. One of my favorite comedians actually, the same is true for Hagen Rether.

The problem, I guess, is that almost everyone reading this entry more or less agrees that torturing must never be allowed for the interrogation of prisoners in a so-called “civilized” country. So basically it’s preaching to the choir. There is, however, a large amount of people who wouldn’t agree on Starstuff’s statements. Unfortunately they will never stumble across this blog because they like their narrow-minded point-of-view to be confirmed every day and only read “pre-selected” websites that share their inhuman opinions.

[Reply]

# 15 July 2008 at 7:56 pm

Starstuff (author) said:

I have to admit, I don’t know any of the comedians you mentioned, though I like the quote.

The problem with discussing issues like this is: I myself get carried away fast when I try to cover a topic such as this. Therefor, I always feel the need to state that this is my personal, flawed, emotional opinion. BUT, I try to see the issue from other viewpoints because I know that I can err as well as the next person. People who know me will tell you that I have changed my opinions before when presented with a valid argument.

Though this probably won’t happen in this case, it’s difficult to discuss this with someone who has an opposing view because the comments are less factual but more insulting. As I have stated on my »About« page, I like discussion and I will listen to arguments as long as people stick to the facts. Of course, it didn’t help that I made a geographical error in my post.

The two commenters who expressed a different view where actually the only two ones I could publish. Of course, their tone is not very friendly, but you should have seen some of the other comments I had to delete. I don’t like to censor comments, but this is MY blog and I am responsible for what appears here. Hateful comments full of abusive language and insults are not going to help in the discussion.

So, I wish there would be more people out there who would comment and present their arguments, especially if they support the interrogation/torture methods by the US government because I am really trying to understand what can make someone support something like this. But then again, like Matthias said, most of them will probably just shake their heads about me stupid German and click away - or they will write hate mails instead of discussing their point.

[Reply]

# 15 July 2008 at 8:26 pm

Matthias said:

Just in case you’d like to check out the comedians mentioned, I have some YouTube snippets for you: Volker Pispers and Hagen Rether (both comedians perform in German only).

I am well aware that you got some really ugly responses full of hatred following your entry. I don’t know what these guys have written exactly but obviously they didn’t have any useful arguments worth talking about. So they don’t count in my book.

As for the two comments you decided to publish: These guys don’t seem to advocate torture either but merely seem to defend the American soldiers involved in the so-called “war against terror”. Additionally, especially commenter “Stu MacPherson” seems to consider the prisoners detained in Guantánamo and elsewhere to be a dangerous bunch that must not be released too easily. That doesn’t imply torture either. I also know some people that support the “war against terror” but don’t think you can fight terror by applying terrorist methods yourself.

So my point was that people who really advocate torture as a means of interrogation of prisoners (as mentioned in your update) only seldomly stumble across your blog because they are not as open-minded as you are - they simply aren’t interested in challenging their opinions every day by exposing themselves to opposing viewpoints. And that is really a pity.

[Reply]

Starstuff Reply:
July 16th, 2008 at 11:05 am

Hi Matthias, thanks for the clips.

As for the comments and commenters: it’s a difficult topic and misunderstandings happen. I never intended to insult the men and women serving in Iraq or Afghanistan. But I can see how my post must look like for a US American or a British, so I was aware of the possibility of misgivings.

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# 16 July 2008 at 10:59 am